Immigrant Community may be abusing their children
READ IT HEREThis is 40-year old Alexander Kozlov and 39-year old Lyudmila Kozlov. They reside in a Russian/Ukraine immigrant community in OR. They have been convicted of abusing their children even though most of their community believe what they did was showing love and raising the children according to the bible (which makes me very sad for other children in this immigrant community).
The children called 911 July 19, 2009, asking the police to rescue them – from a Pet Smart. The kids are aged 15, 14, 13, 11, 10, 9 and six days.
They were hit with wires, cords, spoons, sticks, belts and their parents’ hands, the children testified.
I snipped this:
The Kozlovs, who immigrated to the US from the Ukraine in 2003, were acting as their own attorneys and had been questioning the children.
December 6th, 2009 at 6:03 pm
You know that girl is right. I grew up reading the Bible, and while it does say spare the rod and spoil the child, it doesn’t say beat them black and blue. Kudos to her for having the spine to stand up to mom and dad that way. Again a case of people coming to this country and not wanting to follow our rules.
December 6th, 2009 at 8:58 pm
It occurs to me that the courts had little control over these two.
Several times during Wednesday’s proceeding the defendants made statements related to their love for the children and their faith that elicited objections from the prosecution.
Marion County Circuit Judge Thomas Hart reminded them that the cross-examination was time for questions only and not statements.
Oleksandr and Lyudmila Kozlov asked why the children left without telling the parents and why they went somewhere else to call.
The following is from the StatemanJournal.com, dated December 3, 2009:
“When the police would come, we wouldn’t want to see our parents, how they would react,” theoldest girl said.
The parents asked each child if they realized leaving the home and disobeying their parents was wrong.
“Well I know that but all kids make mistakes,” the oldest girl said.
“It was right,” the boy said.
The Kozlovs asked why the children violated God’s law with their actions and if they wanted to be Christians. Those questions were either objected to by the prosecution or not allowed by the court based on their relevance to the charges.
“With what you did, God can punish you,” Lyudmila Kozlova said to her oldest daughter. “This is what is written in the Bible, and this is the highest law.”
The parents said they physically punished their children according to Scripture.
“If you want to live with us, you need to ask God to forgive you,” Kozlova told her oldest son before he walked from the courtroom. “God bless you and forgive you for everything.”
Kozlova said she was trying to teach the children obedience through physical discipline.
“You can’t make children be respectful by hitting them,” their oldest daughter said.
Oleksandr and Lyudmila Kozlov asked if the children wanted to come back home.
“I don’t know,” the oldest girl replied.
“No,” said the boy. “Because you guys never change.”
I just hope they can’t get this trial overturned because they had ineffective counsel, i.e., themselves. when fools insist on this, and then do it, it’s a waste of everyone’s time and money when it later serves as the basis for their appeal.
December 6th, 2009 at 11:11 pm
Very interesting. My mother was raised by two Ukrainian immigrants who came to the states after WWII. My grandmother looks uncannily like the woman here.
It is very sad to think of a cultural link to child abuse, but I’ve always suspected one. My mother definitely has narcissistic personality disorder, and I feel it began with abuse that she sustained at the hands of my grandparents.
I have a feeling that there was a lot of slapping in the face or body out of anger, because I experienced this at the hand of my grandmother who took care of me when I was little.
I believe my mother was left alone as a toddler sometimes while my grandparents traded shifts working at factories. My grandfather was a blazing alchoholic. My grandmother would hold, “God will punish you!” over my head, and I’m sure over the head of her children. My mother said she never liked dolls – I think she just never got one.
When my mother got pregnant at 19, her parents disowned her, and even though they took her back, my grandmother never had a kind word to say about her in front of me.
In retrospect, I see that they had a very primitive, medieval way about raising children. There was no introspection on their part.
Later my grandmother said how she at times hated her own mother – and so the cycle continued.
Incidentally, my stepfather, also an emotionally abusive narcissist, was raised by immigrant parents who arrived after WWII. His mother was German, his father Russian, and a blazing, abusive alcoholic. My stepfather had a daughter when he was young and completely abandoned her after he met my mother.
December 6th, 2009 at 11:52 pm
Anyone who choses to be their own lawyer has fool for a client., e.g., these 2 people.
December 7th, 2009 at 9:47 am
Being a fundamentalist of any religion has no bearing on where you came from or even the religon you claim to be part of.
Fundamentalists are their own very special little groups. You wouldn’t judge all white people by the actions of the KKK so don’t judge all Ukrainians/Russian by these morons. Also never call a Ukrainian a Russian they will not be amused.
The actual phrase “Spare the rod, spoil the child” is not in the Bible, its from a poem by Samuel Butler written in 1664.
The only relevant quote from the New Testament is:
Hebrews 12:6-7: “…the Lord disciplines those he loves, and he punishes everyone he accepts as a son. Endure hardship as discipline; God is treating you as sons. For what son is not disciplined by his father?”
-Discipline is not beating. And if you want to follow all the stuff in Proverbs aside from the stuff about the rod -good luck. Let me know how using the rod on anyone that is “foolish” works out for you (Proverbs 8:6 & 19:29)
And if you can resolve this, let me know
26:4 Answer not a fool according to his folly, lest thou also be like unto him
26:5 Answer a fool according to his folly, lest he be wise in his own conceit.
December 7th, 2009 at 12:06 pm
I just love christians. Especially ones who think the bible is love and light and goodness. Here are REAL bible quotes, every one about child abuse. The beginning is a guide to abusing children and the end is your god saying how he planned (And carried out) abuse of children and women on a city wide scale. Next time you want to say that the bible doesnt have violence etc. please read it first. Enjoy!
CHILD ABUSE – Proverbs 20:30
Blows and wounds cleanse away evil, and beatings purge the inmost being.
CHILD ABUSE – Proverbs 22:15 – KING SOLOMON
Foolishness is bound in the heart of a child; but the rod of correction shall drive it far from him.
CHILD ABUSE – Proverbs 23:13-14 – KING SOLOMON (NIV)
Do not withhold discipline from a child; if you punish him with the rod, he will not die. Punish him with the rod and save his soul from death.
CHILD ABUSE – Proverbs 29:15 – KING SOLOMON
The rod of correction imparts wisdom, but a child left to himself disgraces his mother.
CHILD EXECUTION – Deuteronomy 21:18-21
If a man has a stubborn and rebellious son who does not obey his father and mother and will not listen to them when they discipline him, his father and mother shall take hold of him and bring him to the elders at the gate of the town. They shall say to the elders, ‘This son of ours is stubborn and rebellious. He will not obey us. He is a profligate and a drunkard.’ Then all the men of his town shall stone him to death…
CHILD ABUSE – 2 Kings 2:23-24
From there Elisha went up to Bethel. As he was walking along the road, some youths came out of the town and jeered at him. “Go on up, you baldhead!” they said. “Go on up, you baldhead!” He turned around, looked at them and called down a curse on them in the name of the LORD. Then two bears came out of the woods and mauled forty-two of the youths.
CHILD ABUSE – Leviticus 20:9
For everyone who curses his father or his mother shall surely be put to death. He has cursed his father or his mother. His blood shall be upon him.
CHILD ABUSE – GOD ON ATTACKING ONE’S PARENTS – Exodus 21:15
“Anyone who attacks his father or his mother must be put to death.”
CHILD ABUSE – GOD WILL KILL THE CHILDREN OF SINNERS – Leviticus 26:21-22 (NLT)
“If even then you remain hostile toward me and refuse to obey, I will inflict you with seven more disasters for your sins. I will release wild animals that will kill your children and destroy your cattle, so your numbers will dwindle and your roads will be deserted.”
CHILD ABUSE – Isaiah 13:16
Their infants will be dashed to pieces before their eyes; their houses will be looted and their wives ravished.
CHILD ABUSE – Isaiah 13:18
Their bows will strike down the young men; they will have no mercy on infants nor will they look with compassion on children.
CHILD ABUSE – Hosea 9:16 (NLT)
“The people of Israel are struck down. Their roots are dried up, and they will bear no more fruit. And if they give birth, I will slaughter their beloved children.”
CHILD ABUSE – Psalm 109:9-13
May his children be fatherless and his wife a widow. May his children be wandering beggars; may they be driven from their ruined homes. May a creditor seize all he has; may strangers plunder the fruits of his labor. May no one extend kindness to him or take pity on his fatherless children. May his descendants be cut off, their names blotted out from the next generation.
http://www.godlessgeeks.com
December 7th, 2009 at 1:05 pm
gby – why turn this into a theological discussion? This story is about abusive parents using the Bible to defend their abuse. Most Christians do not act this way, and characterizing them all based on this poor example of parenting is unwarranted. There are extremists and fanatics from all walks of life.
December 7th, 2009 at 1:28 pm
So are you saying if you’re Christian then you are an abuser?
December 9th, 2009 at 7:33 pm
I thought he sounded like he was saying the men of the time the bible was written were okay with child abuse. Or he’s a moron. I think it’s 50-50 either way.
December 7th, 2009 at 4:11 pm
that was in direct answer to the post above saying the bible did not have those passages. Please read it before you get angry at me lol.
December 7th, 2009 at 4:56 pm
Actually, what she said was that the phrase spare the rod, spoil the child was not from the bible, which it’s not. Maybe you should read before you get angry, which Angel was not doing. She was making a comment about your idiotic generalizations.
December 7th, 2009 at 8:41 pm
Unless she is referring to my post saying the Bible did not say to beat your children. then again, the last time I really studied the Bible was when I was growing up in a southern Baptist church, so there is a very real possiobility that those bts were a wee bit glossed over for the kiddies. but my point was that it is wrong to use the Bible as a justification for beating your children, since belief has shifted since the time the Bible was put into written form.
December 7th, 2009 at 4:39 pm
I hate it when ppeople use the Bible to try and justify abusing their children!
December 9th, 2009 at 7:30 pm
I hate it when people try to justify abusing their children. There is no excuse good enough.
December 7th, 2009 at 8:14 pm
I do not care if these “things” were married. What made these awful things keep reproducing is beyond me. Maybe now the baby carrier should get her tubes tied.
December 7th, 2009 at 9:57 pm
Im not angry. I just fail to see how you can thank god for the good stuff and not blame him for the bad. To say that the bible is archaic and no longer relevant doesnt make much sense to me either. Either the bible is the word of god and of his chosen representatives on earth or it isnt. If you start picking and choosing what parts of it you think are valid then I think it invalidates the whole.
ANGEL, I dont understand why people seem to get irritated when I comment on things that have been said and things go into a bit of a tangent. I dont really see the point in spewing the same response to each post IE the parents are horrible people, shouldent be allowed to exist etc. Yes I agree that these people are scum. But is it so wrong to discuss the underlying problems as well as the apparent ones?
JJ the last time I posted you got very confrontational quickly, once again you jump to conclusions, I never said all christians abuse there kids. I just refute the claim that child abuse is not in the bible. I think it clearly is.
Yes there are good people who believe in religion, in every religion there are great people. Unfortunately the fanatics give the rest of you a hard time. I think its because they believe the bible so strongly and actually take it to heart wich is why I think the bible is so dangerous, there is a lot of hate in that book, and while there is love too it is directed at a select few so long as they obey and dont ask questions.
yes this is my 2 cents, all I can offer is my opinion but I think the world would be a better place if we put more value on this life and less on the afterlife. How many parents have beaten their children to improve their soul or save them from damnation?
December 8th, 2009 at 12:16 am
“If you start picking and choosing what parts of it you think are valid then I think it invalidates the whole.” And is not exactly what you are doing?? why don’t you quote the passages about the mercy of the Lord and loving our children?
And the book of Isaiah, for example, is talking in a prophetic way about the destruction of the world in the second coming, is in no way recommending nor promoting child abuse, do you understand the diference between saying “if the world keeps its perverted ways it shall be destroyed” and “children should be abused and destroyed”?? read Isaiah 13:9 and 13:11 or the whole bible for that matter before posting random versicles in a very out of context way.
I do think that you have a point on the “the same response to each post IE the parents are horrible people” but the bible is not the underlying problem here, and quoting Angel “this is not a theological discussion, is about abusive parents using the Bible to defend their abuse” and I’m convinced that an abuser would give any excuse for their actions even if there had never been a bible.
December 8th, 2009 at 10:41 am
If you think that my comment was confrontational, think again. I was asking a question about your post. Once again, SHE WAS SAYING THAT THE PHRASE “SPARE THE ROD, SPOIL THE CHILD” WAS NOT FROM THE BIBLE. Is that so hard to comprehend? Guess so. Anyways, you obviously have some issues with religion/faith, so I’m just going to leave that whole situation alone. However, let me just say that in my opinion, you are just taking biblical text and spinning it to fit your own warped ideas in the same way that white supremacists do.
December 8th, 2009 at 12:24 am
what would you do for a klondike bar?
December 8th, 2009 at 12:27 am
Yumi!!! I would help you with the kiddies if you give me one..
December 8th, 2009 at 2:16 pm
They are just ignorant fools blaming the Bible instead of taking blame themselves. There is no way that a normal human parent could feel loving satisfaction after doing that to their children. As for the whole Bible proverb situation, gby, the bible WAS written by man eons ago. For someone to follow it’s laws to a tee is ridiculous. I think you CAN say that it is not always relevant. Times are not the same as they were and that changes things. I also don’t want to go on a tangent but for those of us who believe…God is only about one thing, love. He gives US free will. So to blame Him for what these idiots did, why?? They did it not Him. They had a choice and they chose evil.
December 9th, 2009 at 7:28 pm
The lack of child care education for immigrants is one thing. The community not recognizing this is wrong to do here, and we will arrest you. That is stupid. Child abuse is wrong anywhere, customs or no customs.
December 11th, 2009 at 7:08 pm
as for me…. i dont know the first sentence in the bible or any of them to be truthfull but i do know that if that book does say its okay to abuse children then it isnt a book worth reading!
January 2nd, 2010 at 11:21 pm
how do you see nothing wrong with this title? do you really think the united states’ entire immigrant community may all be abusing their children? what a moronic, poorly-worded sentence. either an unfortunately (and ironically) elementary mistake or a purely bigoted assumption.